Inviting in Ease, Play, and Softness

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Our guest today is Maggie Kennedy, who I think is one of the most interesting and joyful people I know. She has a curiosity for life and a passion for people, especially people who are looking to live life aligned with who they uniquely are. Maggie's career has taken her from the corporate world, working at Lululemon, to health and fitness as a CrossFit coach and gym manager, to what is obviously her favorite role of all time, Composed Living’s office manager. When she's not running our office, Maggie serves as an integration coach, working with people as they overcome fears and limiting beliefs and integrating those lessons through life changing experiences. And as of next week, she's embarking on a several months long road trip across the United States, living out of her Subaru Outback with her dog Athena.

EE: Welcome Maggie. There's so many things to talk about that are just in your intro. I love that you're nervous. I think it's hilarious.

MK: I'm so nervous.

EE: Because we talk pretty much every day.

MK: Every day.

EE: And now you're worried about it.

MK: It's different.

EE: It is different. But it's cool. And you have headphones and a microphone.

MK: It's so official.

EE: You know? It's like a whole situation that's happening. We're going to do it.

MK: I think I'm the one person on the team, not in the film industry. Yet I'm somehow the one on camera and I'm like,

EE: I'm drawn to people in uncomfortable settings.

MK: Well, here we go. Already sweating.

EE: Well, we'll start with something easy. I think, you know, you have such a good awareness of why I started composed living and my mission and what that means to me. But I would love to hear from you what this concept of like a composed life means. In your words.

MK: To me, it's the simplicity that like allows peace and alignment in our lives. I think, yeah, I'm very involved in composed living. And what I see all of us getting most passionate about is helping these clients simplify their life and through that simplification, they realize how many beautiful blessings are around them. They don't need all this stuff. Right?

It's, I want meaningful pieces that make my life better. And then they stop buying so much. And then we're not putting as much in landfills. And I think those clients and the people who we really get to see, get it. You know, like our most recent client from last week, just like I have been feeling like I was suffocating. And I feel like I can breathe so well. And I really believe because of all the follow ups I do with people, that these functional systems and having less, it sticks like once people see how great that is it just sticks with them and starts a whole new journey of, okay, now that I'm not cluttered with stuff like how do I want to spend my time?

Like, what are my goals? Like, what do I want to do now that I'm not stressing about my garage all weekend? Like, I can go to the park. I can go hang out with my friends.

 EE: So all the things I love the most in the world. And I feel like you really touched on so many of them in your description sustainability, becoming a more conscious consumer, the physical clutter and its connection to mental clutter. These are truly the things that make me so excited about working with clients and helping them through these experiences. It's fun for your eyeballs to like see something that's pretty, but also it's like such an intense emotional experience in such a wonderful way when you see those transformations happen and then when you see them really kind of register. I like to think about it as like different layers of decluttering, right? So it's like you're peeling back the layers of the onions.

MK: So real.

EE: But if you start with the physical space, then it's like, it's a never ending process, right? This is a practice. It's a lifelong practice of staying organized and like staying on top of clutter. But once the physical stuff is gone, then we can move on to the more fun and interesting level of emotional clutter and what that means, right? Or even not even just emotional, but anything that's not physical, like not in the physical realm and that's where I think the world gets so interesting. Your work as an integration coach is so tied in with this arena. Sometimes I get like almost a little bummed out that I don't have physical clutter to get rid of anymore.

MK: I can relate to that. I really get it so fun to declutter. I can relate.

EE: But now it's like the harder work of relationships, thoughts, habits, limiting beliefs, like all of these, like that's the realm that I'm working on decluttering and it's can be fun. It can be a lot more challenging than like choosing what books I'm going to keep on my bookshelf. But I love the process and I'm so, you know, I'm happy to be in the position where that's where I'm at in my life. But I love, I mean, we're going to talk a lot more about integration coaching and what that means. It's just so freaking awesome.

MK: I also feel like it's super countercultural, like the work we're doing. Like when you really look at how our society operates, like these holidays are about like “things.” Like, what are you getting people? Like, so I think when we're organizing for people, the hardest things they have getting rid of are gifts people gave them and like helping them realize like, it's okay. And then what I think is cool. I'm at the point in my life where people know not to buy me stuff. Like we've had so many conversations about like how I don't want things that it then like expands beyond that person, right? And like, so now many of my friends are like, oh, my birthday is coming up and I want to tell people I don't need stuff but take me to dinner. Yeah, it's that simple.

EE: I love love a dinner as a gift. I think everybody who is close to me knows I'm not a gift giver. Yeah, I love I feel like I'm a generous person, but I do not love the idea of giving a physical gift unless it's something that's like so truly special. That that's like the exact right thing. But now most of what we do is like, either, you know, a quick getaway or a dinner or just spending time together. I mean, in high school, I was the queen of the mixtape.

MK: Oh my god. I miss those. I was just helping a friend organize over the weekend who moved and she still had all of her CDs that were like labeled different road trips she took and I was like, wait, I kind of miss this.

EE: I know.

MK: But clutter.

EE: I know. Well, how can we create that in like a clutter free format? I guess you'd have to take the same songs and make like a Spotify playlist or something. Okay, is there a word or several words? Yeah. That describes what it is that you're wanting to bring into your life or like what you're focused on at this moment in time.

MK: Yeah, I, as you know, had a big ceremony in the beginning of March and was doing a lot of work around where I was bringing discomfort into my life for the work I still had left to do to live a life where what I said to the medicine woman was I want to feel safe and supported after this like that is what I want to feel just as a being walking around and what's been really cool through the experience and working through integration and having some cries and some laughs and some dances, the words that have been showing up for me, like every second of every day, have been ease, play, and softness. And these words to me felt so foreign, even just like six weeks ago. Like, I feel like the world I grew up in and then kept putting myself in made me feel like things should be hard. It should be a struggle. And so the words that I've been holding so close to my heart that like ease and softness, the way it's showing up is like in any moments like now, I'm feeling tightness in my body and I just go soft, like ease, like it doesn't need to feel like that. I am in full control over what feelings I put into my body at this moment, it doesn't always feel like that but I can choose to just like have an exhale soften and then Alan Watts quote, quote, “remember this is play.”

I've been living with my friend and her, her husband and she has two kiddos who are five and four, and I think living with them while I'm trying to remember what play is has been so helpful. Yeah, I was trying to quickly figure out what am I taking in the car with me. What am I leaving behind, what am I donating and I was getting tight with tension and stressed, and the kids come running down, and they start putting on the clothes I'm trying to sort. And then my first reaction is like, I don't have time for this like I have to do. And then I was like, there's that tension, there's that tightness there's that making something difficult that like could be play. And then we paused, and we had a little fashion show and the kids helped me pick out what I was taking and what I'm not and it's going to be a funny wardrobe, but I'm here for it like it's going to be so fun. And, yeah so I'm grateful for those words.

EE: And that's such a good reminder of playfulness while you're on your road trip adventure.

MK: Oh my god, that's the biggest thing.

EE: Kids are the best at showing adults where we stopped being fun.

MK: Oh my god, they're so good at it. And you know, the kids thing is a whole other funny journey for me with I've never wanted to birth children. I love hanging out with kiddos I think pregnancy is dope women are magic, but I have never seen myself birthing kids and I found myself getting annoyed having to defend that to people because I would say that and they're like, but you're so good with kids. I was a summer camp director for three summers like, yeah, I know I'm good with kids I was a kid you know, but I don't want my own that's very different. And the other beautiful healing living in that home and remembering play is I'm like, I can admit that I like hanging out with kids and don't want them and like, again it's for me to not, like, I was missing out on such joy in my life because I was sick of defending my actions like what is that.

EE: Yeah, it's also such a weird concept but I don't know why it seems to be most people's first reaction like if you say I don't have kids and it's like, oh, why not? It's like well, because it's none of your business. Yeah, that's why.

MK: Yeah, I have great nephews. Yeah, I love them and I love giving them back.

EE: And it's like such a huge responsibility that we shouldn't just like sort of mindlessly put on to everyone.

MK: Anyone I know who has kids says unless you really want them.

EE: Yeah, maybe don't. Well, I think what I tell everyone because you know, I have a 23 year old and also am raising my two step sense. It's a choice like you have to go into that knowing what you're getting into. And once that choice is made, you need to be committed to it. Yeah. So if you're not going, I guess so, more succinctly, my advice to anyone, not that anyone has asked me on whether or not they should have children is when you make that decision, then be happy with it. Because that's it. Like you can have a beautiful life without kids, if that's the life that you choose and then choose to be happy with that. And you can have a beautiful life with them. But you're not going to the struggle, the tension, the lack of ease that's going to come in is when your actions are not in line with what's bringing you joy. So don't not have kids and then be miserable about it and don't have kids and be miserable enough that either.

MK: I was just talking to somebody about how the other piece of my integration from this ceremony was realizing anytime I say yes, it's saying no to something else. And as I've been preparing for my road trip this summer, that has been the consistent theme coming up right? like I'm saying yes to this road trip and I'm like saying no to a friend of mine releasing his one-man show that I'm like dying to see. I'm releasing certain projects with work, you know, I'm, I mean, you're amazing and I'm not missing that that much but in my head, I am. And I'm, you know, missing moments with my sister here and other people here. But I am making the choice to go on this road trip. So like, I'm going to have so much fun every step of the way and be grateful I have something to miss and own my choices just fully owning them like maybe I am going to be sad and miss everybody one day but the peace of mind I can have is like, but I put myself in this position and if it really does get to be too bad, I can always change it. Yeah, just go back. 

EE: That's the beauty. That's the beauty of choice.

MK: Love choice.

EE: Ease, softness and play.

MK: I know ease and softness are very similar but like in my body reacts to them differently. So I keep both of them. I feel like I feel ease in my heart and the softness I feel in my like shoulders and my legs. So I like both.

EE: It's so interesting to me that these are words that you're striving for because I feel like they're words that I would use to describe you. So that's a fun, you know, it's like I already see you as such a playful, like soft, warm person but you know also these words mean different things to everybody.

MK: Yeah, and I will I can acknowledge it's something I am reclaiming a little bit like I had kind of lost those pieces of myself a little bit and in the ceremony was shown the moment where I lost them.

EE: Wow.

MK: And it was not what I was expecting.

EE: That’s heavy. 

MK: It was so heavy. It was. Yeah, it was a lot, but it was what I asked for. So it's so funny, my medicine woman, I asked her and feedback she had for me and she was like, I could tell when you were going through it. But you got the smirk on your face because like it's what you wanted. Like I kept asking to get clarity and it'll give you that.

EE: When you saw it was it like you were familiar with the situation. So it was like a vivid like I'm seeing this moment from some previous point in my lifetime. Yeah, and then it made sense.

MK: I lost someone really important to me when I was a sophomore in high school and the moment that came back and the lesson like I didn't let myself be a 16 year old in that moment. I became this like fit I had to fix everything and to make sure everybody around me was okay and I like never once acknowledged what I needed. I felt like immediately jumped into this like doing protective mode and the doing felt so safe. So then I just kept doing and I stopped playing because then I'd have to feel things.

EE: And I feel like you just described me. Yeah, I went through like a mantra was not the same kind of session that you have, but we're doing like, create your own personal mantras. And so you start with sort of like what's your biggest source of struggle right now or like what's a thought that's constantly on your mind. And so journaled a little bit about that. And at this point in time it was, I was worried. I think I mean really it was about the composed living team. And this was, you know, a few years ago and it's like, I just have always had this vision in my mind of like when we get to a place where everyone could just be like a salaried employee. And like they're making more money than they've ever thought possible. And no one has like any stresses around finances or scheduling and like everything is this like sort of ideal - that to me as a business owner was like, that's how I'm going to know I've arrived. I don't know what's like such a bizarre goal that I've set for myself. But it's there and it's real.

MK: I wish every boss wish they could provide that life. It’s be better out there. 

EE: That's true.

MK: Don't change that. Don't change that.

EE: And, but it's like there was nights where I like wouldn't even sleep, you know, because it's like I would be so stressed out thinking about what I need to do to accomplish these, you know, this vision for my life. And it's, and that's just one example, but I feel like that's the recurring theme is like my mind is constantly on a loop of what else needs to be done, and who else needs help and what like it's impossible for me to even walk into a room without even like that needs to be picked up that book is crooked, this art needs to be adjusted. It's like, just give it a rest mind, you know. And so the mantra ended up being something like, oh, and this tied into like a less intimacy in my relationship with Chad. Right? Like, I couldn't be physically in my body and present to where I was like, I feel sexy and fun. And like, let's make out, you know, I was like, no, I'm serious business and I'm uptight all the time. What a joy for you to be married to me. You're welcome.

MK: I try not to blame the patriarchy, but I have at least once going to say like, this is, I feel like so common in success, like business successful women in relationships. If you look at movies TV, like women are so one dimensional in their characters, it's like just now becoming a thing that are allowed to be like complex more often. And so I feel like a lot of women are walking around like looking for like, okay, so how do how do I laugh one second, but then like get really sexy the next second but then be serious the next second because that's all in me. I've just never been allowed to like share each part of me.

EE: And it's also so much work. Oh my God, it's exhausting. So many rules. Anyway, the mantra ended up being something along the lines of like, I allow other people to take care of themselves so that I am able to experience being a fun, joyful, sexy person. And I think it started probably with like the universe takes care of me always. I am allowed like I am allowing other people to take care of themselves because truly the responsibility is not mine to make sure that like everyone I know and love is financially stable and emotionally healthy. And you know, it's like, yeah, I was just making myself run in circles with trying to do things that are beyond my control.

MK: I was a teenager when I went to Al Anon. Are you familiar with Al Anon? Yeah, like the for families or loved ones of people who have addiction in their life. And that is where I learned like, oh, it's not my job to solve anybody else's problems but mine to a degree right? like as a boss you have to do certain things but oh my gosh the freedom to be like I, it really is better to put my oxygen mask on first. Like that really is always better. It's never ever ever ever been the case where I was like, I'm happy I like helped them before I drink water or like right?

EE: This is still our constant reminder with the team.

MK: I was like, do we not literally have a conversation?

EE: Well, because I'm constantly trying to remind people that like, you know, our first priority is to ourselves and our health, whether that's physical or mental. And, you know, the things that we're doing with our work and the service that we provide are very rarely so time sensitive that it's worth sacrificing our health, our sleep schedules, our ability to, you know, exercise or maintain a balance life.

MK: And that is countercultural like coming from work environments where like, what am I allowed where like,

EE: That's always a fun thing. I shit talk to my old company so hard so many times I never mentioned them my name and then I'm like, I'm sure people can figure out where I worked.

MK: I mean, yeah, you know, like for me coming from various different employers like I can't just blame one really like, they didn't care about how I was doing it was like, well, I have a bottom line to me and like, sorry. And so I think what's cool working for you and for everybody else is like, it takes us a second to like get that is real, like it, because it's so not something experienced elsewhere, like it's hard to believe. I even remember when I was approaching you about taking this time off like, not time off but time away and being like, okay, she says she's like down for it but at any moment that could change, you know, because that's been an experience.

EE: How can I resist somebody who wants to live in their car for three months, you know, who says no to that.

MK: A lot of people, a lot of people would say that's

EE: That’s wild. I mean, you're basically living everyone will not, maybe not everyone mine and Brie’s at least you're living our like, we're, we're vicariously having this experience through you and I'm so happy that you are doing this. I think it's going to be so cool. It makes me so sad that people have these bad work experiences. I think I came from the exact opposite background where I had almost entirely really wonderful leadership around me. And I loved working because of it, and I think it shaped my path with my whole career. So I started working. I mean, as a kid I worked in my dad's dental office and that kind of gave me the knowledge and understanding of how health insurance works and medical billing and what it takes to run a medical practice.

And so when I was in college, that's what I did. I've worked for a chiropractor in Washington. And he was the most trusting and wonderful employer who gave me so much freedom to learn and grow and like the encouragement, I mean, I stayed there for four or five years because it was great. Yeah. You know, and it got to a point where it was like, I felt like I was completely running a business. Like I had the autonomy to run a business completely on my own. And then we would check in once a week or obviously he was always there if I needed help with something but really we would just have a conversation once a week and he was there to offer guidance. And if I did something wrong, then it was like, okay, so you did something wrong like here's why, like, here's the impact that that has on other people around this. And so we're going to learn from it and we'll try something different the next time. And that was so cool.

MK: I remember the one boss I had like that.

EE: Yeah, that's sad.

MK: I mean, I was so many more. I don't like I specifically like one boss is coming to mind who it was at Lululemon and they were a temporary person in this role as my boss. And I messed up like I messed up. And I knew it. And what was so cool is that this person pulled me in and was like, I know, you know, let's make it right. Let's not let it happen again. And I was like panicked for 24 hours I was going to get fired. It was not that like I wouldn't have fired someone for this. But you know I was panicking. And like I think about that moment, everytime somebody comes to me telling me they messed up because like that moment where I was just like allowed to learn instead of like feel bad for failing. It’s  like a game teacher.

EE: It's so great. So fun. And also it's like everybody's going to make a mistake at some point in their, you know, career and lives and the only thing you can do is acknowledge it and move on from it. Hopefully you're learning from it in the process. Yeah, I mean, I was so fortunate. I went from there to working for a huge hospital system in Washington. And I mean the leadership just got better and better. I went back to school. That's why I ended up getting a master's in organizational leadership. I was so drawn to these people around me who were so just like charismatic and wonderful and the thought of helping other people on their journey through their careers became like my obsession. And one day it happened.

MK: I know.

EE: And I worked somewhere I hated with every fiber of my being. Like I felt it physically. And it's funny because actually some of my closest friendships came out of that. And also composed living was like born out of this. But it's so hard. It's hard to work for someone who doesn't love people and who actively makes decisions that are not in line with taking care of people. It's so opposite of my nature that I like can't understand it. I'm also extremely stubborn and extremely vocal. So I was like my boss is worst nightmare, you know, I was not the person who was going to sit on that leadership team and go along with anything. So it was two years of fighting. Like just every single conversation was a fight or an argument trying to advocate for my team and my team was great like it was six people when I started and it was over 300 by the time I left.

And it's also like the guilt of that talk about the like, I need to let other people take care of themselves. I stayed to a point where I remember Chad gave me a hug and he was like your body is vibrating like you're buzzing. And I was like, I know I feel it like there's so much anxiety inside my body. It is a physical vibration now that doesn't go away. So I was just like a full tremble.

MK: That's the universe talking, like, somethings gotta to change. Yeah. And I think like the more we go into this like decluttering our lives and then getting into our mind we can, we get better at seeing those signals. And like I, again, I think for a long time I didn't know there was another option other than like existing that way. And then when I was able to see that I was like, this is all I'm choosing from now on.

EE: Yeah. It's a game changer. Yeah. But I'm so, you know, I'm thankful that I had that experience because now I know places where I need to be. I need to have better boundaries to protect myself. I know what it feels like to have that much anxiety build up and I would never do that to myself again. And I know that everybody was fine. Like they were able to make their own decisions after I left about whether that was a work environment that they wanted to stay in. It was, I didn't need to sacrifice my life and my health and well being to take care of other people as much as I would love to. Anyhow, now here we are. Now it's been seven years. I know. Time. It's a long time.

MK: Oh my gosh. Has it been that long since you left?

EE: This is our seventh year.

MK: Whoa.

EE: I know. So fun.

MK: Oh, yeah. I do remember that we had the sixth party and the sound bath.

EE: That was fun. I love parties. I can't relate to that.

MK: If it's like eight people. I like a party with like eight to 10 people.

EE: I love planning for a party. And I'm not going. I love having people in my house. My favorite part of a part. And I say this every time I'm always like, that was too many people. But I want to invite everyone I've ever met. You know, I want the efficiency of like seeing everyone at the same time all in one place. And then the moment I actually start having fun is when everyone has left except for like the six people, you know, and then I'm like, yeah, now it's like 2am. We're going to open another bottle of wine, sit outside, get like a cozy blanket.

MK: See, I just do that the whole time. I don't even try with the big groups. I, whenever I go back to the East Coast, my sister's like, you have too many appointments. You should just invite everybody to one thing. And I was like, no, I need to have one on ones with all of these people. We have serious things like things to talk about. And I've never been like a big crowds party person though. Like I'm much happier hugging a tree in the woods with like two friends.

EE: Yeah, that's fun to you. Yeah, I like that. I like that vibe. And I love it's so funny. I was just talking to my girlfriend Brittany the other day and she's one of those people that like would probably never be around to come to a party. She just travels a bunch. But when we do see each other, it'll be like two full days of uninterrupted, like real conversation and connection. And it's glorious. It's the best.

MK: Yeah, I don't really know how to small talk. And I feel like it's made my life easy because people kind of choose their way out of my life. Because I'm like, let's go deep right away. And they're like, Oh, no, I don't do that. And I'm like, OK, nice to meet you in this moment.

EE: Are there people who don't do that.

MK: Yes. So let me tell you about the CrossFit community. Oh, I mean, it's not everybody. But it's I as somebody who used that sport to like not have to feel feelings, right? Like one of the most common memes is like my therapist is the barbell. And I'm like, no, it's not that it like you are putting more cortisol and stress in your body and like not actually acknowledging the underlying feelings. It's great. And I love it. I actually it will always be my first love, but like so many things, so many tools. It's one one. It's not all. And I think it's important.

EE: There's no replacement for a wonderful therapist. No. And that's hard to find. Hopefully it's getting easier with more resources and things. I see all these like online better therapy options. I haven't explored any of them. I feel like when you find the perfect therapist, then it's like now nothing will ever compare.

MK: I've had that moment. It was so great. I loved her. Her name was Mindy.

EE: Mine was Charlotte. Thank you Charlotte for being the greatest therapist. But then it's like, I don't know, she's and she still in Seattle.

MK: She broke up with me. Mine was like, she was like, it's time for you to go live your life. We were doing like, EMDR and some fun, fun stuff back in like 2000. The first time I did EMDR was after I lost my friend. I did it in 2008 and then.

EE: What does that stands for?

MK: I don't know. Buzzing and eyeballs. And it was so helpful. But then I went for, I went back to work through some other things and she was like, I feel like now it's just time for you to like live with this new understanding and like not need to unpack it every single day. And that's like an interesting concept. And so we would like check in like every once in a while and then I'm on the west coast now and she's still back in Richmond, Virginia. So yeah, she was great.

EE: I wonder if Charlotte would see me on an occasional basis if I flew up to Seattle.

MK: Is she not doing anything virtual? Everyone with virtuals.

EE: I'm sure she would do it. Well, she just has. You just want to go to Seattle. She doesn't have space.

MK: I love Seattle.

EE: I think she's not taking new clients, which makes sense because, you know, why would anybody stop seeing her.

MK: That's real.

EE: I worked with her for 10 years. So she did her magic and now I'm living my life free as a bird. Wandering around with no therapist over here because no one can compete.

MK: Hey, we can carry those lessons for a long time. You know, other tools, other things out there.

EE: Speaking of you're working as an integration coach. Can you explain what that means? Yeah. How you got started, why you got started, all the things.

MK: All the things. So yeah, I work as a prep and integration coach, which those words are most often associated with like plant medicines and the psychedelic space, which I am a part of and here for. And my belief as a prep and integration coach is that it spans so much more than that. Right? It's really about are you prepping for a big life change, a move, a breakup, a new relationship, you know, a new job. How can we like intentionally move through that change and like, make it fun, learn from it, grow from it, instead of like kind of be panicked or feel sadness around certain things that aren't necessary to feel and, and then integrating afterwards. Right? So again, most commonly seeing that with plant medicines and because things get real. Right?

For me, I first sought integration coaching during quarantine. I was in a really very, very privileged, lucky, fortunate, every single word that exists. A situation during quarantine where I was getting paid, but not working. I had free time to really explore and go deep in my mind and some sister and another friend we call our sister, we were all in the house together and started playing with low doses of different plant medicines. Rape also known as Hape and America, because spelling is not ideal written, with mushrooms and several other really beautiful medicines that we, some of us had experienced before, but as a different way, right. And so it was so special we would sit with one of these medicines and like meditate and think and just sit in the backyard. We would take just a little bit still fully in control. Nothing in any of the experiences really was like a visual, just like very in our heads, talking about our feelings, pulling from decks. And we were like, whoa, this is like really changing things, like I'm not just like saying things differently, but they're resonating differently in my body. Like, it was unreal.

And we were like, we want to do this with our friends. We don't want to like drink and have meaningless, or no, I shouldn't. It's not always meaningless, but oftentimes like forgotten or shallow conversations with people like drinking, or we can invite some of our closest friends who like like to get deep and do this together. And so we started doing that once the world got safe again, because we have this beautiful space in our backyard with a pool and a garden.

We were giving lots of love to during quarantine. And it's just like snowballed into this really beautiful thing. And my whole career coaching people has been my favorite thing to do. And I think, yeah, when I go back, I started coaching at a CrossFit in 2011 I was 19. Did I have any business? Probably not. But I was so fascinated. And, and what I remember back to those moments is like, actually my favorite parts coaching in a class were talking to people about their goals. Like, why do you come here? Like, what is the motivator for being here?

And then as a summer camp director, it was the sleep away camp every summer. I would have to hire 10 to 20 college-age young adults. And what a fun age to like be a part of people failing or trying new ideas and my favorite part of that job was these one on ones I would have with the counselors and helping them understand their part in problems and what they could release as not their part in causing any chaos. And then every job after that I've just really tried to create as much coaching experience like opportunity for me. It's my favorite thing when I can help someone understand something about themselves through their work environment. It's much less scary, I find for people. And so that's what I was doing for so long, right? I'm trying not to use a very good example. So I'm coming up blank. A specific example to share.

EE: But I mean, I can tell you from my own personal experience, I was ready. So I had a very difficult relationship with someone in my family, where just everything about this person sort of like irks me. And so it made it extremely hard to be around them for large quantities of time without feeling like my blood is boiling, you know. And it's not a good feeling. It's not a good, like it's not the relationship I want. It's not how I want to feel my own body. And I remember somebody giving me the book, A New Earth, Ekhart Tolle. I think it's a new earth. I always forget if it's a new earth or a good earth. I think it's a new earth. One of those. And there is a moment in there where something just like really stuck with me that was like, you have how other people respond or what other people do has nothing to do with you. Like something along these lines. And that went into my work in customer service and then like studying leadership and all of these things and like really diving into what does it mean to be in relationship with another person, especially in customer service if that person is angry. And like what were the industries I worked in? Health care, banking, telecom. Like nobody's calling their bank because they want to tell you how awesome you are. You know, no one's like no one's ever excited about any of these things.

So my job was primarily dealing with angry people all the time. And that phrase just stuck with me so much and I was able to hone that skill in combination with Charlotte and her therapy for 10 years and reading and doing more work independently, but giving, being given the opportunity to work with so many angry people over a decade in customer service, and employees and employee evaluations and hospital layoffs like all these like difficult conversations… My relationship with this person and my family has changed so significantly because I know how to be in control of my own body and my emotions and to not let somebody, you know, it's like I'm no longer responsible solely for this relationship and how I'm feeling in it. And I can choose to respond differently or not take things personally and not let that internalize and then start to fester. So it is like it's all it's interesting that work is such an opportunity work as in like your career is an opportunity to do work on yourself personally.

MK: Yeah, I think it's so fun and the book for me that like I still get mind blown remembering this chapter was Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Oh my God, so good. In the book, she talks about how she believes and experienced and practiced, compassionately letting someone go because like someone had come onto our team that was like the highest performer where they had been. And then on her team they just like weren't doing well like things just like weren't vibing is the word coming to mind that's not the word she used. Like for first she was like what am I doing wrong what am I doing wrong then it was what are they doing wrong what are they doing wrong and then it was like this just isn't a fit. And like what I can do is share with someone else in my company all the great things they do and get them into a role that's better and like I was like I want to be that for everybody and I think the funny joke when I was a manager with Lululemon was that like, I was such a great, you know, people leader and coach in that space that everybody achieved their goals and we were always like having to hire new people because they like got promoted or got that we're ready to start the business they wanted and I was like I will always be known as that failure if that's considered a failure because

EE: ….the exact opposite of a failure. That should be every leader's goal is to see their people move on.

MK: Yeah, or like within the company, you know, within the company or whatever.

EE: So I think like it's, you know, not always an opportunity within the same company sometimes it's something that's totally different but your job should be to help them achieve their fullest potential so that they can do whatever it is they want to do with their life, whether or not that's working for you or someone else or not working whatever.

MK: And I feel like, you know, so many years of doing it in the workspace. And then we started doing these like intentional hangouts and something I found so helpful when I was using these different sacred plant medicines was integration. And there were these -- I did some Googling and Instagram Googling and found Tam Integration -- and they hosted many different integration calls every week like men's only, women's only, everybody, people of color like you could find your place and I started attending the women’s only online on Zoom, and it would, it like reminded me of al-anon but like conversations I loved like it was people would come on and you would just share what you're going through.

And then the facilitator of the space would say like does anyone have reflections or feedback to share with that person which I actually think is so beautiful and you don't get in an al-anon and like I actually learn and love getting people's reflections and feedback so I love that this was a part of it. And then I was like wait we need this for the people coming to hang out with us and and doing these things because these life changing events whether it's a plant medicine a new job a move, they can be scary and make you feel unstable and, and so that we don't want anyone to feel like they've completely lost their footing throughout a change right like how can we work to make you feel grounded and safe while navigating these big scary things.

EE: I have a question. So when you started doing the integration and calls you were joining these integration calls, does everyone, you have not had a communal experience right.

MK: No, no.

EE: Okay, so everyone is on their own journey. Then they're coming together just to talk about so the integration really is how can I continue to take what I'm experiencing and like make it just become a part of who I am as opposed to like…

MK: Or make it make sense.

EE: Yeah, you're working into the fabric of your life. Yeah, you know, like this is going to sound bonkers but one of my friends who's participated. One of the most life changing moments for them was watching ants. And it's one of those things that's saying it now people not knowing context are like watching ants is what changed this person's life. And, you know what it means to us is very different than what it meant to them. And in the moment they were like, what is this like why am I so fascinated with these ants. And now you know it's been I think four months since that experience. And this person is so thriving. And in their head they say like I've just been watching the ants. And so it's helping people figure out what those moments are that like don't make sense and probably won't make sense to anybody but you. And using that to like live your life. I was on the phone with them and they were like, all of a sudden I realized I'm living all my dreams that happened and I was like watching the ants. So it's so powerful and you know, Tam Integration is also now my teacher that's where I've been learning about integration coaching it's a really beautiful community and space and I actually totally lost my train of thought thinking about…

EE: That happens to me all the time, all the time

MK: …just thinking about how much I love that training program I'm now like what was I saying about ants? Maybe that's it that was your whole thought.

EE: So you're at the end of your training now.

MK: I'm at yeah and this is like I have had coaching training before I come through the Co-Active Training Institute. I've had all sorts of that like leadership coaching. And so it's just like an additional course to learn more about the like plant medicine side of things. I'm still so new in this space and there are people who have been doing this for literally generations and that's something that's so important to me I; in this space do not consider myself a medicine woman, a shaman, any of those things. Very transparently a fellow journeyer who's here in this space still learning and figuring it out and my hope is that you know the people who come to our experiences and maybe work with us with some prepper integration coaching them feel called to like go to Mexico, like sit with someone who has been doing this, their grandparents are doing it go sit with the descendants of Maria Sabina who's the woman who brought mushrooms really to the, is credited with bringing it to the Western world and

EE: Yeah, there’s a lot of really wonderful traditional healers, you can find throughout the world.

MK: It's so good everywhere. And I think what's interesting is we're seeing more and more of these medicines showing up in like the medical field, right? Like MAPS is doing a lot and for some people the clinical approach feels safer to lose control in. Yeah. Okay. Great. So, you know, for me, it's always been the more like we're rolling around in dirt experiences what I'm looking for.

EE: I think I would need a little bit of both. My mind has a hard time relaxing if I don't know exactly what's coming. And that's tricky. That's what we know.

MK: That's your intention.

EE: Okay, but there's so there's the happy medium for me would be, you know, even now like, you know, marijuana is legal in California. But even that in the beginning phases, I was still like, oh no, absolutely not. Like, I don't know how much is too much. And so I'm not willing to like play this game. But then, you know, they started coming out with all these really cool, like, I think the Dosist pen was like the first thing that I saw where it was like, it tells you exactly how much. And it's such a like baby amount, you know, that I was like, okay, well, that's something.

And there's like your element of control so that you can feel comfortable losing a little bit of control. So I totally understand. And I have friends who've been like in a hospital setting doing ketamine therapy. And it's so effective. And I love that. I also am so happy to, I mean, my first path through life was I wanted to become a traditional Chinese doctor and acupuncturist. Because this is like, I'm so fascinated by our body's ability with things from the natural world to heal ourselves.

MK: Because we are nature.

EE: And I just make it to an endlessly fascinating to me. And so I would always choose a more natural path over just like a sort of pharmaceutical solution or anything that's like treating symptoms only. Of course, there is a time and a place for all sorts of whatever your body needs is what your body needs.

MK: Well, and I think that's the work is for people like, I want there to be more information about all of the options that are out there right now. For some people, weed is so helpful. And for some people, it's really not. But like, we should all have the ability to learn the information so we can be safe so we can explore it and learn what works for us. For me, I was put on big pharma medications in my teen years, and it led to a pill problem and an overdose when I was 19.

EE: Oh my gosh.

MK: So for me, like, no going back to big pharma to the man made things. Yeah, at this point in my life, that could change right like I could get a diagnosis in a year that requires some support in that way. And so, I think that's one of the things that we're not being open and flexible to listening to ourselves and like what is needed there.

EE: You know, I love educated decision. Whatever that means for you, because I mean each body.

MK: well, and the bodies change. Yeah.

EE: No one should be telling anyone else like this is the only path forward for you like everyone is so unique your needs are unique. The way you respond to things like, I think somebody I don't remember what I had like some minor operation or something in my early 20s and the doctor beforehand, like the night before was like take a, I don't even remember what it was because I just don't do like pills. I think it was like a valium or something. Something that like the average person can take like multiples of them throughout a day and they're like fine and functional. I was like drooling on myself and couldn't get off the couch, like so completely incapacitated that to this day I've never taken anything else like they just messed me up so hard. But like I'll have a migraine that's so bad I'm like can't get out of bed and I will take one ibuprofen like not even the big ones like the 200 milligram whatever like a normal, whatever and like in five minutes I'm like, oh, thank goodness that's over you know so I can't even imagine what would happen if I took like an actual like prescription strength pain reliever. I would be like a sleep for four days. I don't know. So it's not for me like my body is so sensitive, but it also makes it great like you know I had insomnia really bad for years.

When I'm sleep deprived it mimics all the symptoms of depression for me. And that's not a place I want to be so I'm you know, obsessed with like making sure that I'm always sleeping enough. And this is where like I love weed gummies they're great. Yeah. And it's not like you know I'm not getting high, it's not it's just like the combination of like just a few milligrams of like CBD mixed with like the sleepy time THC. I'm like glorious. The problem is if I like don't go to bed immediately, then I stay up and I'm like raiding the pantry and I'm like who wants to use them crackers at one in the morning. I don't love that. It's not what I need. I just need to go to bed and not stay up eating.

MK: The food tastes so good.

EE: Yep that's true. At a reasonable hour when you're not supposed to be fast asleep.

MK: Yeah. I know. I know. It's yeah it's I will say I've been saying a lot I'm like grateful to be alive now in this era where these tools and resources are so much more accessible - I will thank technology for that. You know there's many many more people have access to the information so they can make those educated choices and

EE: I hope it continues to grow I hope that as a culture we continue to allow non-whatever pharmaceutical medication to rule everyone's lives and and give people just more choice more options more choice and figure out what works for them. The people that I know that have done ketamine therapy for depression. I mean it's a game changer. Like to go from not being able to function on a daily basis to being able to experience moments of like true joy in your life again. That should be something in my mind that is available and accessible to everyone who would benefit from that.

MK: And it's so I think touching on that like these, you know these medicines, these different tools like they are not the answer right? it's like you figuring these things out. But these medicines these tools help your body learn it. I even think about acupuncture as one of these I love my dream has also been it being acupuncture is one day but school is expensive.

EE: So expensive and…

MK: I’d love to go to like Bastyr.

EE: Yeah, because it’s in Washington.

MK: But like for me when I first started having acupuncture treatments, it was for anxiety and the way we would do it was she would put the needles in and then have me just sit in that state of relaxation she was like your body doesn't know how to do this we've got to teach it what that feels like. And then over time I needed that treatment less and less because my body was learning how to go to that relaxed state that less anxious state. And I see these different plant medicines or like breathwork meditation can be so transformational in helping your body learn how to control these states so. Yeah, I just hope there continues to be more out there and less stigma and then of course like more support when it does go wrong.

It is you know and there's more and more places out there offering support like Fireside Project is this great nonprofit that if you're having a bad experience with any psychedelic specifically they offer support like you can call it and I want like more and more of that Zendo Project is another one there's you know it's becoming more and more of a thing and that brings me joy because when I was first doing things that would bring me to those spaces it was not safe it was wild and not not safe and I think that is what makes people scared are those experiences that hear about or have themself that they were uneducated for. And didn’t have support a question I get asked anytime I'm going to participate in a ceremony they say “are you out about your use of these things” and I was like what? They're like do you tell people in your life that you know we're using these plant medicines because it's proven at this point that if you're doing it secretly it like becomes more dangerous in your mind yeah because… 

EE: That’s interesting.

MK: …if you're keeping it a secret like shame shows up a lot. So it's funny being the manager of a cross fit gym for a while and then starting to figure out how to share like but over the weekend I dissolved yeah can't wait to tell you about it.

EE: Well I even asked you before coming on this but because obviously we've spoken about it and I'm so supportive of all the work that you're doing I think it's amazing but I didn't know yeah I was like are we allowed to talk about this can we talk about this in public I don't know we're doing it we yeah we're doing it.

MK: and so many people are doing it like there's a probably two to three specifically like psychedelic conferences a weekend now like maps has their big one in Denver and June the end of May there's another one with Rick Doblin who's known in this space, like people are talking about it I am not a lawyer and don't understand all the legal parts of it. I just like follow the guidelines I've been given cool and trust.

EE: I mean what else can you do?

MK: What else can you do but trust and surrender yeah to it all.

EE: Awesome I'm so glad to have this conversation with you and learn a little bit more and maybe one day I'll join one of your circles I still think we need to do a retreat. Retreat coming soon in Lake Arrowhead do an integration what is it quite it's not like a circle -- what is it just a session a lot of different things? What’s the word that you would use to describe it like I'm going to host a …gathering?

MK: Gathering.

EE: That's a nice word yeah brings a sense of community that

MK: Well that's what it's all about it has like it has to be a community it like the community is essential

EE: : so fun you're heading off on a road trip for months.

MK: Yeah, I have no idea what's going to happen really like I have a plan but my commitment is to be okay with that plan changing. So, but that's like hard for old me you know?

EE: I like I don't know I'm I'm a very free spirited traveler. Which is funny because I'm like, you know, a stickler for a to do list and a plan and all of these things but I have never had a problem changing my mind, or changing course, or just letting things go where …that sounds cute we're gonna stay here.

MK: Yeah, that's me now, not always me.

EE: I love this adventure and you're staying in your car? Not the whole time… most of the time?

MK: Most of the time. I'm going to be passing through to see a friend in Nashville and I'm sure like she was like we have a guest room, like we'll see, when I lived in the van I people would invite me to sleep inside and I still wanted like my bed you know it's like I get to take my room with me everywhere

EE: It’s so cool.

MK: It's really nice.

EE: You're like a crab. In your little shell. That's my, sun sign, I'm a crab which really tracks for me I am so like I'm inside my home where it's nice and safe and cozy and sometimes I'll venture out and then when humans get too scary I come back in.

MK: Yeah, that's real.

EE: I love that you're going to be driving across the country in your little crab shell and you built it out like you decked out your car.

MK: I mean yeah my my goal was to not spend a lot of money on this because it's so temporary not add more waste to the world because it's so temporary. So I did use local buy nothing groups to source as many materials as I could. So it's hodge podgy but that's how I like it you know and yeah super simple because I'm not a skilled woodworker at all. And as we were talking earlier we learned like nothing is even out there so it gets really challenging but I have you know a bed that's like in between like bigger than a twin kind of for me and my dog and then a cabinet next to it and…

EE: so cool.

MK: Yeah

EE: Oh, I can't wait to hear updates as you cruise around all the places you're going.

MK: Yeah. And you know going to be offering experiences and coaching moments as I go. So, so nice.

EE: Have you been to, I think it's called Calaveras Big Trees State Park or something like that.

MK: No, where is it. In California but I think if you're coming back because you're driving back down the west coast, you’ll cruise through it between Yosemite and like Tahoe. So somewhere like North Central.

EE: The route back is still…to be planned. 

MK:  …might be worthwhile because there's also I think it's like the largest cavern system in the United States. Okay. Somebody needs to fact check me.

EE: Adriana, our Monica Padman over here. Perfect fact check everything I'm saying in this episode. I just read about it in the most popular magazine in the world the AAA California Getaways collection or something like this. It just came in the mail the other day. It had like 25 best road trips in the United States or something. I was like, well, of course I want to read that at least and there were so many that's the Joshua thing Tree I showed you earlier was also in there and so it had all these like fun places with like restaurant recommendations or things like where I was like I've been to Yosemite so many times but I've never heard of like this state park that's just a little bit more north from there. So now it's on my list of places I want to go off to.

MK: I’ll have to work it in work it in. Yeah.

EE: I've driven the West Coast so many times in my life.

MK: I love it.

EE: So beautiful.

MK: I know I grew up on the East Coast and I would always say that the East Coast was better and then I came out here and I don't think I could go back. Sorry.

EE: I think that's probably a common phenomenon.

MK: It's why it's so crowded here. Stop coming.

EE: I love the East Coast too. But I think it's because I prefer the weather on that coast or just up. There's anywhere outside of Los Angeles really is, that's my weather.

MK: We don't love the heat.

EE: I'm not a hot weather person.

MK: So I'm leaving for the summer.

EE: That's so smart. 

MK: I got really grumpy in August and was like why am I doing field this way? Oh, I've been hot since April. I haven't stopped sweating since April.

EE: Yeah, it's been over 100 degrees for consecutive days. I have a friend who just left Seattle, which just like blows my mind why anybody would ever want to leave Seattle.

MK: I know, I did.

EE: I know I did too.

MK: We both did. We both left Seattle. Also Brie is a fellow Seattlite. 

EE: We should all go back.

MK: Okay.

EE: It truly is like the for me, it was the most perfect place to live, and especially the climate, but my dear friend Chris just bought a house in Phoenix because he's like, I can't handle how gross it is here. And I was like, I can't handle just how gross Phoenix sounds like that sounds so oppressively hot all of the time, but it's like it's just different. We have completely opposite bodies and concepts of what makes for a wonderful day.

MK: The consistent theme is just like listen to yourself and do what feels good to you.

EE: Everybody, just do you. That's it. Well, there you go.

MK: Just do you!

EE: That's the takeaway from this conversation. Just listen to your body and do whatever feels right for you.

MK: Even if it's hard and scary because that's really when you should listen to yourself. I think.

EE: Yeah, that's tricky.

MK: When you think why did I think that? Oh, no. And then go with it, right?

EE: Should we pull an Oracle card? I love that you brought props.

MK: I did. I was like,

EE: Was this conversation scary? Do you feel better?

MK: I'm so sweaty, you guys. I'm so sweaty.

EE: Is it because it’s warm in here?

MK …because it's past April. The sweating has started and it won't stop until October.

EE: I feel like you're a natural. Oh my gosh. You should be on all the podcasts. Oh, gosh. Talking to everyone about all the fun and interesting things you're doing. 

MK: Okay. 

EE: So for anyone who's not watching this, but is only listening, Maggie was so nervous that she brought a prop so she would have something to do with her hands.

MK: I needed it because I can't find a ring of mine right now. That is normally my like. It's a ring. One of my best friends gave me that says, fuck it. And it's like, sorry, are we allowed to say that?

EE: I love to curse like a sailor. I forget sometimes where my surroundings are. Then I'm like, Oh, I sound like an uneducated sailor.

MK: But I feel like the world is moving beyond that take on words.

EE: I've always had this, you know, whatever, even like here, the kids. And I'm like, as long as you understand the time and the place, then you know.

MK: I blame we lived in Ireland for some of my high school and our like teachers cussed at us. Like it was just other words to be said.

EE: Well, maybe that's inappropriate.

MK: But it was like, it's just to a playful. It sounds bad I'm realizing. But it was really, really great. Fun times. Okay. So how I like to pull and many, many people would probably tell you there's many, many different ways. But I say, you do what works best for you. What a surprise. But a tradition that was shared with me that I really love. And so I like to bring my shuffle until I feel done shuffling. Simple. I like to fan things out so I can see. And then a friend of mine once said she places one hand like down closer to that sacral chakra womb, if you've got one, keeping a hand there to focus the breath there and then eyes closed just moving hands over until feeling called to boom down. So I'll go first.

EE: Do you have a thought or a question in mind or you just kind of create weight to see what the universe is showing you? 

MK: It's different. It's often different. But the most frequent question I ask, like most casually or most frequently is just like, “what should I keep close to my heart today?” You know, I think who knows if anything is real? But like, it's probably not a bad idea to have a concept close to my heart today and let that guide my day.

EE: So I usually ask if I don't have a specific question and it's a version of that. That's like, “what is it that I need to know right now?”

MK: Yes. Oh, that's such a good one. Yeah, I love that one.

EE: And someone also told me if you use your non because truly there's no wrong way to pick a card. But I love all the hearing people with their decks. Use your non-dominant hand to wave over the cards and then you'll like feel where you're supposed to stop. And it totally did. Like I get like a warm sensation. This is the time in the podcast where people are going to be like, they've gone off the deep end.

MK: You know, like I would argue like some people I see them start to do and they're like, I don't feel anything. And I'm like, well, go more in and you're waiting to feel it. Instead of waiting to feel it, just like sit there and ask that question until like I normally feel like a finger twitch or something.

EE: Like that's the one. 

MK: And it could just be my finger twitching. We can acknowledge that. But that's when my finger toes to twitch and I'm going to go with it. Right. So yeah, I'll go. We can each pull one. I'll go and then you can go. Great. So fun. And Adriana, if you want as well, I'm here for it. This was the first deck I ever got. And the goddess oracle by me, Doreen Virtue. My first favorite podcast actually, it was called Meathead Hippie. And I was like, Oh my God, someone gets me.

She loves to lift heavy shit and she loves to hug trees and cry about nature. And this was a deck she recommended. And I've just, it's been great.

 EE: How cool.

MK: Yeah, it's seen some, seen some days. 

EE: It's called the Guidebook for the Goddess Guidance Oracle Cards by Doreen Virtue.

MK: Okay. Just touched down so we're rolling with it. Oh, I've never seen this one, but I love it. Okay. I pulled out. I'm not going to say this properly. A boonden. A boonden tia. And it's beautiful. And it says prosperity: the universe is pouring its abundance out to you be open to receiving. And I will receive all the support on this road trip. So that feels really good to me. And the other thing I really specifically like about this deck is it teaches you about the tradition that this goddess comes from. And so I like to go do some research so I can just give respect and honor, like the, like this goddess is a beautiful Roman and Norse goddess. So going to go research how I can give some love to those traditions and all that I will learn from it. I'll dig into this later, but I'll let you pull now.

EE: So fun.

MK: I know, right? Wow, that's really good. I want to put her back in for you. That's fast.

 EE: Vesta. This is what it looks like. And it says home. Your household situation is improving either through a move or a healthy change in the occupants.

 MK: There's an under-- there's an undying flame within your soul and it's the light, seed and spark of your consciousness. Your outer world reflects your inner world.

EE: Can this be any more perfect for me? Also, we're at the end stages of a full home renovation and we've been living in like two other air B and B's. And everyone knows I hated this house for the last 14 months to the point where like I would drive past it because my mind was like blocking it out of existence, that's how unhappy I was being here in the state that it was. And now I love being here. You love your household situation is improving.

MK: Yeah, your energy levels can be rising. That's so hilarious. We did it. We did it.

EE: Well, thank you so much for jumping out of your comfort zone and coming and chatting with me. It was so fun. And good luck on your road trip. And obviously I'll still talk to you.